Jani Kozlowski | Early Childhood Inclusive Education
Updated: Dec 22, 2022
Think Inclusive: Season 10 Episode 5
For this episode, I talk with Jani Kozlowski, author of the book, Every Child Can Fly: An Early Childhood Educator’s Guide to Inclusion. We discuss why inclusion matters in early childhood education programs. And how we can prepare educators to create inclusive learning environments for all learners.
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Click here for the transcript of this episode.
Resources
Melissa McCullough | What Inclusive Preschool Services Look Like
Every Child Can Fly: An Early Childhood Educator's Guide to Inclusion
ECTA Indicators of High-Quality Inclusion
Early Childhood Inclusion Videos
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Credits
Think Inclusive is written, edited, and sound designed by Tim Villegas, and is produced by MCIE.
Orginal music by Miles Kredich.
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Audio Transcript
Tim Villegas
To Jani Kozlowski, inclusion is personal.
Jani Kozlowski
I was born with a rare orthopedic impairment that affects my joints and my spine. I'm kind of a bionic woman from the waist down, I have total joint replacements and my hips, knees and ankles, and I was included throughout school. There were times through my childhood. When I was pulled out for surgeries, I was homeschooled for part of my senior year of high school. But I experienced inclusion firsthand as a preschool aged child and all the way.
Tim Villegas
And not only did she experience the benefits of inclusion, the benefits are backed by research.
Jani Kozlowski
We have a large body of research that supports inclusion in early childhood, both for children with disabilities and without disabilities. Children with disabilities tend to make positive gains across all areas of development. They have higher level social skills, improved peer relationships, they can make gains in language and literacy. And those benefits are found in children regardless of the nature or type or severity of disability.
Tim Villegas
But it's not just about the benefits for learners with their academic or social development.
Jani Kozlowski
I believe inclusion itself is healing. You know, because when you create inclusive learning environments, you're basically creating a culture of kindness and caring and belonging, and everyone in that space deserves kindness and caring and that feeling of belonging.
Tim Villegas
My name is Tim Villegas and you are listening to Think Inclusive presented by MCIE. This podcast exists to build bridges between families, educators and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world.
Tim Villegas
For this episode, I talked with Jani Kozlowski, author of the book Every Child Can Fly: An Early Childhood Educators Guide to Inclusion, we discuss why inclusion matters in early childhood education programs, and how we can prepare educators to create inclusive learning environments for all learners. Thank you so much for listening. And now, my interview with Jani Kozlowski.
Tim Villegas
Today on the podcast, we'd like to welcome Jani Kozlowski, who is a Technical Assistance Specialist for the Early Childhood TA Center at the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.
Tim Villegas
She provides TA around topics such as early childhood inclusion, professional development, and collaborative partnerships. Previously, Jani served as the inclusion lead for the Office of Head Start National Center on Early Childhood Development, teaching and learning. Jani is the author of the book, Every Child Can Fly, an Early Childhood Educators Guide to Inclusion. Jani, welcome to the podcast.
Jani Kozlowski
Thanks, Vegas. Nice to see you here. I learned your nickname was Vegas in college in your last blog post.
Tim Villegas
You're right. It was one of those nicknames that just stuck.
Jani Kozlowski
Thank you so much for this opportunity. Tim, I really appreciate it. You know, it's all one system, the pre kindergarten programs that school district runs are really the start of inclusion for young children with disabilities. So it's pretty cool to have this opportunity to reach them and to think about how we might be able to partner between early childhood and K 12 now as a country going forward.
Tim Villegas
So tell us a little bit about your early life and how it prepared you for the work that you do now.
Jani Kozlowski
Okay, well, you know, the book is really personal. I include a lot of personal stories in it, including the fact that I was a child with a disability. I was born with a rare orthopedic impairment that affects my joints and my spine. I'm kind of a bionic woman from the waist down. I have total joint replacements and my hips, knees and ankles didn't know that you could get joint replacements in your ankles, but I'm here to tell you that you can. It's a condition that was passed down to me by my father. It's a form of dwarfism. So I'm a very petite lady. As a child, I watched my father navigate the world as a person with a physical disability. And my dad emigrated to the
Jani Kozlowski
United States from Argentina. Before I was born, he went to medical school, he was a practicing psychiatrist, you know, his life wasn't perfect, but he accomplished a lot as a little person. And so that was sort of my first impression of, you know what it is to, to navigate this world and, and I was included throughout school, that was not a question at all. There were times through my childhood, when I was pulled out for surgeries, I was homeschooled for part of my senior year of high school.
Jani Kozlowski
But I experienced inclusion firsthand as a preschool aged child, and all the way in. And I tell some stories about those experiences. In the book, I'm also the parent of a child with a disability. My son, Ricky has been the greatest teacher of all, he has ADHD, and he has a sensory integration disorder. But he's completely triumphed, in spite of all that. He's 23 now, and he has a really rewarding career. And is just the most amazing human being in the world. There were attempts to segregate him, even in kindergarten, there were attempts to put him in a class with a children that were just just children with autism. And I knew that Ricky learned differently from other children, but he was never disruptive. And so I remember asking the teacher, you know, what's going on? Why do you think he needs a separate class? And she said, well,
Jani Kozlowski
for example, when all the other kids are in circle time, Ricky is underneath my desk looking at the hardware, which, by the way, is still an interest of his, he fixes, complicated diesel engines, and he works on forklifts and giant construction equipment. So anyway, he, we were able to figure out ways around it. And you know, growing up, I always wanted to be treated just like everyone else. And I wanted that for my son, as well. So there's are a lot of early experiences that kind of led me to this work.
Tim Villegas
I was messaging with someone last night, it was a family member, kindergarten,
Tim Villegas
their child, you know, they got a draft of their IEP. And in the draft, it talked about special education locations. And so they asked me like, What do I do here? You know, I know that they want to remove my child from general education for some academics, but I don't want that. So what do I do?
Jani Kozlowski
I think we need to help parents understand their rights, and the fact that they are entitled to a continuum of placement, you know, all the different various settings along the way, and that, that the law is that we first have to start with the least restrictive environment, you know, which is where the child would be if he or she didn't have a disability, and what kind of supports are necessary to accommodate the child in that least restrictive environment.
Jani Kozlowski
So I think once families know about their rights under the law, and the fact that they are entitled to that continuum of placement, it's, it's up to the school to make that happen. I mean, it's up to the IEP team to make that decision, that the family is part of that IEP team. And so their voice should matter.
Tim Villegas
You tell the story of this baby bird. And I'm assuming that's the reason why you called the book, what you did. But if you could share that story with our listeners, I would love that.
Jani Kozlowski
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I really did write the book, kind of like a love letter for all the early childhood educators out there because that's how I started out in the field. I was a preschool. I actually started out as a nanny, I was Jani, the nanny. So if you're trying to know how to pronounce my name, Jani, the nanny, but I was a preschool teacher and an inclusive classroom, very spirited four year olds. And I wanted to write a guide for how early childhood teachers could support each and every child in their program and build on the strengths that every child brings. And so while I had been thinking about this, I was sitting out on my porch and my deck looks out on to a really grassy area. So there's a lot of bird life out there and it's usually very peaceful. But on this one particular morning, it was very different. Yeah, it was out there in my PJs, drinking coffee. And it was like the sky turned a little bit darker. Like there was a shadow over the sun. And out of the corner my eye I saw this giant hawk fly by. He had this huge wingspan and an evil look in his eye and he flew right by me
Jani Kozlowski
he, and he flew down to a nearby tree and he snatched a baby bird right out of the nest. It was so fast. The baby birds parents weren't around, they must have been flying off getting food, and nothing could be done. And so the hawk just grabbed this prize and curved back around with this baby in his claws. But the thing was that the baby was really squirming. He was really squiggly and wiggly. And he was loud. And he was squirming and squawking and he must have just been too much trouble because the hawk dropped the baby. And down he went he he's squiggled, down, down down to the grass. And I sat there, kind of in shock. It was it was sort of in this area that I would have had to put on wellies and definitely not have my PJs on to be able to go rescue this baby. I didn't even know if he was alive. Should I go get it? But that baby started to cry. And I could tell even though I'm not an expert in bird, that he was saying, Help me Come get me Mama. And soon not that mama bird came around. And she was fluttering around him and calling out to him or her. I don't know the the gender of the bird obviously.
Jani Kozlowski
But she It was like she was saying how did you get yourself into this predicament. I can come and feed you I can take care of you. But I can't put you on my back and fly you back up to the nest, you know. So she was very distressed. But eventually she flew away. And the baby just squawked and squawked and squawked and I sat there kind of not knowing what to do. And then the baby went silent for a while and stayed silent for a long time.
Jani Kozlowski
And Tim, I did go back to drinking my coffee, I kind of forgot about it for a little bit. I'm not a bad person. Really.
Jani Kozlowski
I was in my PJs, after all, right? But then I looked over and there was like this kind of jerking motion in the grass. And believe it or not, that baby bird flew
Jani Kozlowski
It was a really pitiful kind of fly. It was very wobbly. It was not like an adult bird fly. But it was a fly nonetheless, and kind of wove around and flew out of my view. And I was just thinking, Oh my God, that's resilience right there. You know, I mean that the only thing that baby had known was sitting in a nest waiting for for Mama to come with food. That baby had never flown. It certainly didn't know what a hawk was. And so I was thinking what was going on in that little baby bird brain after being snatched up and then falling down to the ground. And I told my friends, this story, and I have a lot of early childhood teacher friends. And they immediately made this connection to children. And the fact that as educators, we're the ones down there on the ground, waiting to teach the baby birds when they leave the nest. And when we think about the children that come to our classrooms, or our programs, we don't know necessarily what their life was life before, you know, outside of the nest. We don't know how they left the nest. And they arrived to us in different ways. Some children leave the nest in a really gentle sort of way others leave in a traumatic way. But they all arrive in our programs with different skills and different abilities. Some of them come to us with mama bird by their side, she leaves them with a peck on the cheek, and they already know how to fly. You know, they're they're pretty competent already. And others seem only to know how to squawk and carry on and kick and fight and roll around on the floor. I know and my friends knew as well that all children can learn to fly. And they might not fly in a straight path and they might not fly the way other birds fly. But they can learn to fly in their own way. And with our love and our care and our support. And so I start off the book with that story because it really kind of shows what inclusion means to me, and, and how, as early childhood educators if we approach those baby birds in that way, and figure out what their strengths and abilities are and how we can support them. Every every child has that potential.
Tim Villegas
I love the connection between the struggle of the mama bird that like I want to help you but also the mama bird
Tim Villegas
gave the the baby bird space to figure it out. And so I think there's a lesson for me there.
Jani Kozlowski
I didn't even think about that.
Tim Villegas
As a former special education teacher
Tim Villegas
Sure, it was really easy for me to step in, when I saw my students struggle and be like, Oh, let me let me help you, you know, right, instead of stepping back and saying, like, they can figure it out, they can do it, you know? Yeah. So that's what, that's what made. When I read the story, that is how I connected my story to, to that one. So, you know, so one of the reasons why we we wanted to have you on was connecting the worlds of early childhood in K 12. So, there's a lot of K 12 educators that listen to this, this podcast, what's something that a K 12 educator may not know about early childhood education, specifically related to inclusive education?
Jani Kozlowski
You know, I am an inclusionist, I love that term that you use, and it's so cool to be able to, to connect with other inclusionists, you know, k 12, early childhood, like that, I think, you know, the first thing is that inclusion in early childhood sets the trajectory, right? It's, it puts children on this lifelong path to inclusion children and families, because they start off with this vision of what it could be like, you know. And in a lot of ways, it's easier to include children in preschool, because you know they're smaller, they're still learning all of the social and emotional kinds of things. And families, you know, have this opportunity to learn about what school might bring, you know, the K 12. Side of school. So when families experience that high quality, inclusive setting, right from the start, where the child's supported alongside their peers, they get that vision of what school could look like, what life after school, could look like, I was just at the inclusion institute a couple of weeks ago that FPG puts on and one of the things we were reflecting on was the fact that, you know, we live in an inclusive world, and at 21, we expect children to, to thrive in this inclusive world. And so why are we keeping them separate and segregated all this time, and then expecting them to make this big jump. I mean, thank goodness, there aren't separate grocery stores or separate restaurants and, and so being an inclusive environment, children with disabilities can learn skills for navigating the inclusive world right from the start, and their peers can learn, they can learn about what it looks like when children overcome challenges, what resilience looks like what, you know, what struggling and and succeeding looks like, and accepting differences early on as well. We have a large body of research that supports inclusion in early childhood, both for children with disabilities and without disabilities. Children with disabilities tend to make positive gains across all areas of development. They have higher levels, social skills, improved peer relationships, they can make gains in language and literacy. And those benefits are found in children, regardless of the nature or type or severity of disability. I mean, inclusion in early childhood benefits, children with the most severe disability, almost the most. And then it is also the research has shown that children without disabilities also benefit from those inclusive environments, they have greater cognitive and language skills, higher levels of empathy, that you might imagine they achieve, and awareness and respect and understanding of diverse abilities. And what we've also found, or writing a paper on this, that classrooms that are designed for each and every child tend to be higher quality in general, there have been links between inclusion as a practice and measurements of quality in early childhood. So all children benefit as a result. And I think, basically, it's the law, you know, as we were talking about earlier, that Ida requires that when making decisions about placements, that they must first consider where the child would be if they did not have a disability. So I mean, I think those are the things that K 12 educators know. But they also can know that that's true for early childhood as well.
Tim Villegas
So in the law for K 12, they that the law makes a distinction about removals, and specifically about it basically, if a student is particularly disruptive to the learning of
Tim Villegas
themselves or others in does,
Tim Villegas
because I am not aware I am embarrassed that I don't know this question, but is it the same for early childhood as well?
Jani Kozlowski
You know, it's it's different in that in early childhood pre K is not, you know, is not in the law, like K 12. is I mean, it's, I mean, in the, I think in most all states kindergarten is, is part of the, the school, you know, the range of ages is what I'm trying to say. And we're just now starting to see universal pre K in some states, but certainly not all, you know, that's building. And so the, you know, the difference is that K 12 is available through the public school system in the United States and birth to five services are in what we call a mixed delivery system. And so
Jani Kozlowski
the whole thing about removal isn't, isn't there aren't restrictions on it in the same way as K 12. Because it's not, you know, it's not a requirement that a State offered. Right. And actually, what we end up seeing is that children with disabilities end up getting suspended or expelled at a much greater rate, even in child care programs. So we kind of see that same dynamic that we know happens in K 12. occurring and childcare. And it used to occur in Headstart too, but Headstart created a requirement regulation, that children can't be suspended or expelled, at least not with substantial, you know, reason for cause that's documented and so forth. Right. So that's a piece of work that we're working really hard to, to help states figure out is around suspension and expulsion, the disparities around ability and also the racial disparities as well.
Tim Villegas
Can you imagine, three, four and five year olds being suspended?
Tim Villegas
Kicking out a three year old? I know, yeah, giving up on a three year old? Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Jani Kozlowski
Yeah, we have a lot of work to do in that regard. You know, and, and I think it's really,
Jani Kozlowski
I don't blame the educators because I think it's about having the, the tools and the competence and the confidence, to know what to do, you know, and to have a supportive team that's going to help to work together to figure out some solutions. I remember when I was a preschool teacher. And we had a child that was very disruptive. And my co teacher, I remember saying,
Jani Kozlowski
Can't we put him in a therapeutic preschool? Can't we find a therapeutic preschool program for him? And I thought to myself, aren't we the therapeutic preschool?
Jani Kozlowski
I mean, what's different here? I mean, that. That's what we do. Right? Yeah. So it isn't something that should be different. It's something that if you're a quality early childhood program, then then you're a therapeutic place, you know, and you figure it out.
Tim Villegas
That conversation, I'm sure resonates with a lot of listeners, because in K 12, that that conversation happens a lot. Can't they go somewhere else? They're too disruptive. I can't teach, we need to be building up the capacity of the educators that are serving the students.
Jani Kozlowski
I mean, that's really why I wrote the book. So that early childhood educators would understand the system first of all, and be able to think about how it relates to their lives, but then also to have some tools and strategies. And
Jani Kozlowski
there's a huge glossary in the back. I don't know if you saw that when you were looking at the book, and I was like, oh, no, did this go too far? I didn't realize that glossary would be that huge, but it's true you so much jargon, in this world. And so having that,
Jani Kozlowski
that place to dispel the confusion around what the terms mean. And there's a chapter on learning environments, a chapter on teaching practices, a chapter on social emotional teaching practice in particular.
Jani Kozlowski
So that to give educators some strategies that they can use, not all the strategies, but a good sampling of some of the available strategies.
Tim Villegas
How would you describe an inclusive learning environment?
Jani Kozlowski
So I love that question. And I think inclusive learning environments are ones that have an appreciation for children's strengths and interests. They provide opportunities for growth and learning. And they're a place where any child can be successful. You know, if the right conditions are met, any child can succeed there and
Jani Kozlowski
Now we, we have the ability to think differently about education to design learning environments that consider the child's perspective with activities that are individualized for the diverse learning styles that young children bring. And it's down to those three defining features of inclusion itself, right? It's not just about access, but it's also about participation and supports, no learning environments. It's not just about getting in the door, but how designing learning environments that engage all learners with universal design principle with individualization with the strategies throughout the day for children to have opportunities to learn to work toward IEP goals, or IFSP goals. And that learning takes place within the context of relationships that we have with others. So developmentally appropriate schedules, and lesson plans and other experiences that staff and families can use to gather to make those accommodations that will support all children.
Jani Kozlowski
And then that an inclusive learning environment is also one that has supports not just for children and families, but supports for educators. You know, the research tells us that, that educators are typically value, they typically value the concept of inclusion. But they are concerned that they, you know, don't have the skills, they don't have the training. Now, one of the examples that we use a lot in early childhood is the use of a feeding tube, right. And so you have a child come, and they use a feeding tube. And the educators never helped a child with feeding using a feeding tube. But the thing is, the parent hasn't had that experience either. And the parent has had to learn, and the parent did learn. And the parent is open enough to show that educator, this is how you can feed Jani, you know, this is she needs a feeding tube to eat her lunch. And this is how you can support her with that. So once educators have this support, send that professional development in that collaborative partnership with families and with other educators and coaches. And, you know, they have access to the resources and supplies they need. That's a way to set up an environment where educators can be successful too. And I do believe that it's that, that high quality inclusion isn't possible without those supports.
Tim Villegas
How can we better prepare educators?
Jani Kozlowski
I listened to your podcast where you had an early childhood leader on from Illinois, talking about how she had learned about serving children in inclusive settings in college, and then she got to the district and it was all segregated. And she thought, this is not okay. And I remember one of the things that she talked about doing was taking teachers on field trips, so they could see it in action. You know, see it happening. And we have so many great videos out there where you don't have to take a field trip to see it in action. But But yeah, I mean, I think that's part of it, too, is understanding what this looks like, what are the possibilities, how it benefits children and families, and how I argue it benefits educators as well. I'm doing a session at the National Association for the Education of Young Children, professional learning institute that's called supporting inclusion when teachers are stressed to the max. Because I believe inclusion itself is healing. You know, because when you create inclusive learning environments, you're basically creating a culture of kindness and caring and belonging, and everyone in that space, deserves kindness and caring, and that feeling of belonging. And so
Jani Kozlowski
inclusion itself is healing. I wouldn't be remiss, I have to say, Tim, back to your question about what is an inclusive learning environment, which took us down this whole path that ECTA center where I work, that Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center has developed a set of indicators of high quality inclusion and can share that link with you maybe you could, I don't know if there are notes or something you could put it in, but there are indicators for,
Jani Kozlowski
for strategies at the state level, at the local level, community level, at the program level and in the early care and education environment level. And so that's another lens to think about what is high quality inclusion is through that lens of
Jani Kozlowski
those indicators, and it's a lot of things we've talked about, but they can be really helpful as well as a tool for, for educators that are looking to, you know, to strengthen their practice.
Tim Villegas
We will include a link to that in our show notes. Also, you mentioned videos. And so are those also available on the ECTA website as a resource? Or are you talking about something else?
Jani Kozlowski
We do have some videos available on the ECTA website. And then I also have just compiled a collection of resources, you know, sites, where states have compiled videos of practices, there's great collection out of California, Illinois has has compiled a bunch, Illinois actually has this set of modules called Understanding inclusion through the University of Illinois that's free to everyone that focuses on inclusion in early childhood, and has lots of, of content and videos too. But I can look through my list and send you some of my favorite places, if you're interested.
Tim Villegas
Jani, have you always been pro inclusion? Or
Tim Villegas
are you know, maybe you were pro inclusion, but your thinking has evolved? On inclusive education? Tell us a little bit about that.
Jani Kozlowski
Yeah, I think my value for inclusion has always been there. But I've learned so much about the challenges and opportunities related to inclusion over time, you know, I,
Jani Kozlowski
I had always thought that the barriers to inclusion were all about funding, or legal constraints. And I've ultimately learned that it's really ultimately not about those things at all, because we do have laws in place that support inclusion. And funding even isn't a barrier when you break down the actual cost. It's actually cheaper to pay for a staff of itinerant special educators that travel from site to site, and coach, early childhood educators to provide the supports that children need, than it is to pay for a whole separate brick and mortar school building, and buses to bus children from that early childhood setting to the school for their services. We have a cost analysis tool that helps districts break down those costs to see that it actually is cheaper. But I've learned over time that ultimately the barriers come down to attitudes and beliefs. We have some, some research that, that shows that that really is where it comes from that the notion of how children with disabilities should be served as a lot to do with how we've always done things. You know, we have a child with autism. And in their IEP, we say, Oh, we have an autism class here at our school district, you know, because we've always done that all the kids with autism go to this autism class, and we make those decisions based on what we've always done not because it may cost less to do it differently, and certainly not because it's best for the child, because we know that inclusion is best for the child. So I definitely, my thinking is definitely involved, evolved in that way.
Tim Villegas
So Janie, if you were advising special education directors on how to connect the worlds of early childhood and K 12? What would you suggest they prioritize if they want their district to be more inclusive?
Jani Kozlowski
Yeah, it's a really good question. I've thought about it a lot more since I've gotten to know you and the think inclusive materials. And because we do we do have kind of siloed systems. But I guess, I think that the early childhood, folks within a district have a lot of wisdom to bring to the team. You know,
Jani Kozlowski
Piaget once said that play is the work of childhood. And a lot of times there are people that think that early childhood or pre K is just play, but but young children learn through play. And I would argue that older children and even teenagers and adults learn through learn best through play as well. I mean, if you think about, like the science experiments from middle school that you really loved, or the ones that were engaging and fun it was it felt like play. So I think there's a lot that those two systems can learn from each other just based on those kind of deep values that are held by my early childhood friends. And I would also
Jani Kozlowski
you know that there are indicators in the state performance plans and the annual performance report the SPP APR that states have
Jani Kozlowski
have to submit to OSEP, the Office of Special Education Programs every year. And there's an indicator six that measures least restrictive environments in preschool in settings, so it's called preschool environments. And it looks at the percentage of children ages three to five, that spend at least 10 hours a week in an inclusive setting. And so it's actually all different kinds of environments are reported. But
Jani Kozlowski
what we look at around inclusion in preschool is the percentage of children that receive their services, or spend at least 10 hours a week in regular early childhood programs like childcare, or Headstart, but that also received their services there. And you know, a lot of programs will have children in an inclusive placement, like Headstart or childcare, but then they bussed them back to school for services. And it's a real waste of learning time, it's a waste of money, the cost to rate, you know, run the bus and pay for the bus driver, and so forth. And so
Jani Kozlowski
I, you know that there's an interest in, in showing
Jani Kozlowski
all of the cool things that districts do on behalf of children and families, and indicator six as part of that. And so, finding ways to connect with the Early Childhood experts in their area to learn from one another, and to strategize together about how we can make a difference so that, that preschoolers are also in least restrictive environments, you know, served alongside of their peers.
Tim Villegas
Jani, it's been fantastic to have you on the podcast, could you let everyone know where they can find you, your book and any other resources.
Jani Kozlowski
My book is called every child can fly an early childhood educators guide to inclusion. It's available where all books are sold. If you do a search on Amazon, I'll pop up their free shipping. If you're prime, and I'm on LinkedIn, I think that might be a good spot. I'm also on the UNC website, I have a little section for each of the of the staff. So yeah, so Google me, and you'll find all kinds of all kinds of connections.
Tim Villegas
Well, Jani it was fantastic to have you thank you for being on.
Jani Kozlowski
Well, it has been my pleasure. I love talking with you just in general and appreciate this opportunity to connect with your audience.
Tim Villegas
Think inclusive is written, edited and sound designed by Tim Villegas, and is a production of MCIE. Original Music by Miles Kredich.
Tim Villegas
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you did, here are some ways that you can help our podcast grow. Share it with your friends, family and colleagues. And if you haven't already, give us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Special thanks to our patrons Melissa H. Veronica E., Sonya A., Pamela P., Mark C., Kathy B., Kathleen T., Jarrett T., Gabby M., and Erin P., for their support of Think Inclusive. Another way you can help support Think Inclusive is to become a patron. Go to patreon.com/thinkinclusivepodcast and become a patron today. This episode's interview was recorded using Riverside FM. Interested in getting started for free? Use our affiliate link in the show notes. For more information about inclusive education or to learn how MCIE can partner with you or your school or district. Visit MCIE.org. We will be back in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai