Dr. Mona Delahooke | Beyond Behavior Charts and Positive Reinforcement
Think Inclusive: Season 10 Episode 3
For this episode, I talk with Dr. Mona Delahooke, author of the books, Brain-Body Parenting and Beyond Behaviors.
We discuss the neuroscience of behavior, how parents and educators can move beyond behavior charts and positive reinforcement, and a new way to look at using the check-in procedure with learners.
Thanks for listening, and if you haven't already, please give us a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Credits
Think Inclusive is written, edited, and sound designed by Tim Villegas, and is produced by MCIE.
Orginal music by Miles Kredich.
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Audio Transcript
Tim Villegas
Dr. Mona Delahooke wants parents and educators to think about challenging behavior differently. Usually, when we target behaviors that we want to change,
Mona Delahooke
we tend to think, well, this is good or bad behavior or something that we need to be concerned about. We focus on the behavior, which I view is the tip of the iceberg, right? Just actually a signal of what's going on inside of a child rather than the target.
Tim Villegas
But what if there was a way to look beyond the typical behavior management systems to support learners?
Mona Delahooke
The most important environmental aspect is a caring, warm, loving adult, who witnesses your distress. And who doesn't reinforce you when you're doing something they think is good and takes away their attention when you do something that they believe is attention seeking or negative.
Tim Villegas
And what about those disabilities specific classrooms that districts say are so necessary?
Mona Delahooke
Why would we segregate those in our society who are differently wired? What message does that give those children? And how about depriving those children who are deemed as neurotypical of classmates who have different brain wiring?
Tim Villegas
My name is Tim Villegas and you are listening to Think Inclusive presented by MCIE. This podcast exists to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. For this episode, I talk with Dr. Mona Delahooke, author of the books, Brain-Body Parenting and Beyond Behaviors. We discuss the neuroscience of behavior, how parents and educators can move beyond behavior charts and positive reinforcement, and a new way to look at using the check-in procedure with learners. Thank you so much for listening. And now, my interview with Dr. Mona Delahooke.
Tim Villegas
Today on the podcast, we have Dr. Mona Delahooke, who is a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 30 years of experience caring for children and their families. She is a senior faculty member of the Profectum Foundation, and a member of the American Psychological Association. She is the author of Beyond Behaviors: Using Brain Science and Compassion to Understand and Solve Children’s Behavioral Challenges, and is a frequent speaker, trainer and consultant to parents, organizations, schools, and public agencies. She lives and works in the Los Angeles area. She is also the author, which is why she's here of Brain-Body Parenting. So welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast.
Mona Delahooke
Oh, thanks so much, Tim. Thanks so much for having me on.
Tim Villegas
I'm really excited to have you on we talked a little bit before we started recording about how Beyond Behaviors was really your book about your experience in education. And how misunderstood students who are neurodiverse and the new book Brain-Body Parenting is really a parenting book, but I'm really interested in our audience, understanding the connection between, you know, how parents focus on solving problems with children and how teachers do. Can you share a little bit about why do parents want to focus on solving problems instead of relationships?
Mona Delahooke
Well, it's a really good question. And I think it's something that is a thread in our culture, not only in our schools, but in our parenting and how we view children. We are accustomed, I think, to viewing behaviors as the target. And we tend to think, well, this is good or bad behavior, or this is a misbehavior or, you know, something that we need to be concerned about that we focus on the behavior, which I view as the tip of the iceberg, right, just actually a signal of what's going on inside of a child rather than the target, which is where our culture, and especially our education system tends to view especially those behaviors that we would consider challenging. So that I think was the notion the paradigm shift that I am suggesting for education and even for parents is that we do look beyond the behaviors to see about that very useful information it provides about the child and be less judgmental about what a behavior means, and focusing less on the behavior and more on the child.
Tim Villegas
Yeah, so let me bring in a personal story, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna keep this or not, but I was making breakfast this morning for my nine year old. And she's the only one who gets up early with me because everyone else is older, middle school and high schoolers. And I made breakfast. She did not want to eat it. We have like this menu, you know, monthly menu and it's set. Right? I made the breakfast. She didn't want to eat it. And there was a part of me that was like, that stinker. She doesn't want to eat my br-- you know? I made this breakfast. She doesn't want to eat it!
Mona Delahooke
All the work! And thinking. This is a real breakfast. This doesn't sound like just a piece of dry bread.
Tim Villegas
It was -- you know? I'll tell you what it was -- it was an apple cheddar fritatta, okay? Like --
Mona Delahooke
Oh my goodness.
Tim Villegas
Mona, you would have loved it.
Mona Delahooke
Okay, I'll order two of those.
Tim Villegas
No, okay, that's it. But seriously, I was thinking about this. And I'm like, I'm like, You know what it's like, she's not trying to get under my skin. I mean, I know my kid. But she's not like, and that it was so funny because I was thinking about your book. And just in my experience as an educator, because that kind of stuff happens all the time. Like, it doesn't matter if it's breakfast, or if it's an assignment your wanting to give, you know, like, this kid doesn't want to do what I want them to do. Right? So I want to bring in this question and connect it to something that you wrote on social media, because you wrote something that you said in your book was one of the most popular things right, that you've you've put out on social media. And it's: If the ability to control emotions and behaviors isn't fully developed, until early adulthood, why are we requiring preschoolers to do this? And then punishing them when they can't? So why do you think that resonated with so many people? You know, I mean, I'm just thinking like, you know, my nine year old, who was getting upset with me, because I wanted her to eat my breakfast that I so dutifully made, you know, like, she's not, she's not fully in control of her emotions at six o'clock in the morning.
Mona Delahooke
I love that. Yes, yes. Well, let's think about from a few different angles. And I love your example, honestly, because it would be so easy to personalize refusing to eat a delicious breakfast that was made with love, right? And care to have it feel like and I know, I felt this is a parent a lot. Like, oh my gosh, that just so mean or disrespectful, are you joking? Like, really? Like, why are you doing that? And the whole idea that we can kind of deconstruct that I know, as a parent or a teacher, certain behaviors can make us feel like the person is being disrespectful, or they're not considering our feelings and things like that. But what we don't realize is that underneath the tip of the iceberg of the behavior are so many other factors that are likely influencing those decisions. And so for example, it could be that inside of that of her body, she was not feeling physically hungry yet, or that her body was still waking up. So even the smells could have triggered something that we call a, a safety threat right to inside the bodies, like the smell be like, oh, and so it was a physiological reaction. She wasn't aware of that. And, and it came out in like, No, I don't want that. So we can look underneath, we can kind of start to understand that our behaviors and our emotions is a deeply physiological process. It involves our body. But also in regard to that quote that you just read. It's part of our development, the ability to contextualize and control your emotions and your behaviors is a project that starts from toddlerhood and moves on to really young adulthood. That ability to kind of realize put all the ducks in a row. Have in your mind to be able to say something polite rather than something, which is how you really feel. As we get socialized, we learn how to to have a more sophisticated problem solving, but it's a project and I think that's why the quote resonated. That was so funny, because it was one of the most popularly shared quotes and I just threw it up there. Literally within 10 seconds. I was taking a walk. And I saw this, these parents trying to have a toddler do something that was way beyond their skill level. And so I just like put it on. And sure enough, like 2 million people saw it. So I think that a lot of us don't properly understand social and emotional development. We have what's called the expectation gap. We think kids can do things when they really can't developmentally. Sure, they can walk, they can talk, toddlers look like a legit little mini adult, but they are so unbaked. And that's why when we understand their brain and body development, we can see that we can expect these behaviors rather than dread them.
Tim Villegas
And that applies to children that are not on a typical path of development too correct?
Mona Delahooke
A million percent and, and just emphatically so because that's the other part that our our education system doesn't get very well. And I'd like to first say that I there is no blame and no shame intended, the educators that I work with, and I know, intend well, and are incredible people, they have been our heroes through the pandemic. So I have nothing but respect for those individuals and helping our children and our students. But from a from a knowledge standpoint, our field of education and even the field of psychology, I think, doesn't understand the profound impact of individual differences. And how those individual differences such as brain wiring differences, perceptual differences, movement differences, all those things that our neurodivergent children and students and teenagers and adults have in which makes them special and makes them unique, oftentimes are judged as inappropriate behaviors or behaviors that are misunderstood. And I think at the at the worst end of it, punished. And that's what I would like to see shifted in our education system.
Tim Villegas
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, let's get back to Brain-Body Parenting, because one of the phrases you talked about is the platform. And I thought that was really interesting. So what do you mean by the platform?
Mona Delahooke
Yeah. So I think we're more accustomed to think about our children's thinking brain. And there's been a lot of of great parenting books out there about the brain, and including the brain and how we think about parenting, which is so great. And I'm adding that the brain gets its operating instructions from the body. So I coined the term after Dr. Stephen Porges, who is a neuroscientist that I that I really value and use his his theory in, in my work is that the actual platform that launches our behaviors, ours and our children's, and our emotions, and our sensations is the brain and body. So the platform is a shorthand for our brain and body connection. And that is always in charge. Because we're not just a brain. And we're not just a body, we're always both. So I'm bringing into the parenting literature, this idea that if we don't understand our children's nervous systems and our own, we're missing the full picture. If we're just focusing on behaviors, we are really again, looking at the the behavior is the target and not the signal. And it can kind of mess up our relationships, it can kind of make us feel certain ways about our children. I know that happened to me, when I had one of my children whose behaviors I didn't understand. They seemed either odd or, or disrespectful. And until I until I knew better, I just the relationship was was kind of on on a shaky foundation. So we can learn so much from this platform. Yeah.
Tim Villegas
I loved how you said that. You the behavior, a lot of times we see behavior as the target. Right? Instead of oh, now I forget what you said behavior. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. Because I'm just thinking about as if, as educators are listening to this, you know, we have behavior targets all the time, like, like IEP goals, right? observable, something that's observable, and that is what we're taught to look for. Right? Not signals.
Mona Delahooke
You hit the nail on the head. Exactly. Our whole and not just education are really our whole culture is around looking at behavioral management, behavioral control, and especially in our education system, because teachers are taught behavioral technologies, right, those are, those are our teachers best toolkit, you know, behavior charts, explanations on posters on classroom rules, and, and teaching children what's expected and all that and there's nothing wrong with teaching children what's expected or having rules posted on the classroom. But what I do have a problem with is things like behavior charts, where you where children or teachers track behaviors by either colors or going up and down. When we are working outside of that knowledge that you don't want to punish a signal, that is a stress behavior, because those stress behaviors that our children do that that get on IEP goals that people think are intentional bad behavior, like bothering other students, or trying to escape from the classroom, or making loud noises. Those aren't done by by students trying to make life miserable for their peers or their teachers. Those shouldn't be the object of our behavior plants, those should be compassionately understood as the adaptations and protection of the nervous system for that student's body and brain for their platform. And that's the paradigm shift in how we view behaviors that hasn't taken root yet, in our education system.
Tim Villegas
A trend in modern applied behavior analysis is to really look for those underlying sources, you know, for challenging behavior is what you're proposing in this parenting book. And in beyond behaviors, is that really different? Then the modern ABA framework?
Mona Delahooke
I'm really curious. I've heard the phrase modern ABA framework. And so it's, it's, I wonder about what that actually means. And
Tim Villegas
I have no idea because I've never heard of it until I wrote it in the question. So if you --
Mona Delahooke
Yeah, so I'm assuming -- Yeah, I'm assuming it's a way that ABA may be trying to update their their databases. And possibly also with a growing wave of the neuroscience, that is showing us that behaviors are signals, and digging deeper, but boots on the ground. I'm in schools, I am observing in classrooms, I'm in preschools, I'm in special ed, ABA run, schools observe as an observer, because of my patients are all in those schools, I don't really see a difference between the ABA I see. See now and the ABA I saw a decade ago, when you're focusing on behaviors, you're focusing on behaviors. And if a child is, for example, not paid attention to when they do a certain behavior, or when they are considered that they're not going to be reinforced, or they're not going to be not going to get a sticker or attaboy, or that's great unless they do x. To me, if that's still behavior management, and behavior management doesn't consider the internal life of the child their feelings, their self concept, their emotions, their physiological process. In other words, how distressed are they inside? How much can they show you that distress? And what are your techniques doing to that child's distress level, such as when children are put in like calm down rooms that are supposed to be these nurturing places where children can feel safe, while the calm down rooms that have children that I have seen are where an adult will go with them to a room and not talk to them? Because they don't want to reinforce a quote unquote, bad behavior. So with all due respect for everybody working with children, people are telling us about what it felt like to be the recipient of a behavior management program. Those are the students who are now teenagers and young adults that I've personally worked with that tell me what it was like for them. So since I'm, I am not neurodivergent, in that way, I need the information from the experts and to me, the experts aren't the teachers. They are the students themselves who went through it.
Tim Villegas
The effort that educators put into crafting an environment like and I'm talking physical, a physical environment, to reduce the stress and make children and students feel safe. Their energy would be better put into building and cultivating a relationship as opposed to a physical environment. Is that right?
Mona Delahooke
I love the way you said that. 100% Because relationships are the most important part of the physical environment. Now, certainly, you know, noise cancelling walls, I've been in certain schools where they have pad, pad like walls that absorb noise, and background, a foreground. Sure. Those are some great aspects of creating an environment. But the most important environmental aspect is a is a caring, warm, loving adult, sees who witnesses your distress, and who doesn't reinforce you when you're doing something, what they think is good and takes away their attention when you do something that they believe is attention seeking or negative. So I love that you just brought that up. Yeah, we could spend our resources on human accommodations first, that doesn't require any extra money that doesn't require an architect or funds to build new classrooms, if it requires human beings with the lens shift away from behavior management, and towards compassion, and what we call co regulation.
Tim Villegas
Do you think that that is more likely to happen in? Well, I feel like I'm leading the witness here. But do you feel like that this, this co-regulation, developing and cultivating relationships, and I'm really mostly talking about the students who are neurodivergent, but you know, as an organization where we are promoting inclusive schools, we're promoting students, in classrooms with their typical peers, we are not promoting self contained and segregated environments for students with disabilities. And I'm just wondering, in your professional opinion, you know, which is more likely to for these relationships that happen?
Mona Delahooke
Well, in my professional opinion, it needs to happen. Why would we segregate those in our society who are differently wired? What message does that give those children? And how about depriving what those children who are deemed as, as neuro typical, depriving them of classmates who have different brain wiring? It's just it's the question, I think it you aren't really leading the witness. You're just I'm just thinking from a logical perspective. Segregation, is that good for our culture in general? And I think not. So But your question is a good one, where is it more apt to happen? And I think that relationships at this point, and this might be a bold statement, but again, I'm and I'm coming from it in a bit of an advocacy position, because I'm an observer, I'm not part of the education system. I'm a, I'm a consultant to students who are in it. But in our education system, we are hyper focusing on behavior management, and under focusing on building relational safety. And the neuroscience is unequivocal, that relational safety is the foundation of resilience. It's the foundation of physical and mental health. And why in the heck are our special ed students not given relational safety? Why are they given behavior management as the as the top end approach, which by the way is very expensive, and especially our students with the worst, you know, the worst or the most quote unquote, air, quote, egregious behavioral challenges are given the most detailed and, and overarching behavior plans, which, again, go back to the fact that we are not looking at human beings who are in distress and what their nervous system signals are. And agitated behaviors, fight or flight behaviors, hitting, kicking, self harm, all of those behaviors are a sign of a human being in distress, not a human being acting out to make other people's lives difficult. So our whole mentality, I think, is is about a couple 100 years old, in how we view behavioral challenges. And that was my purpose of writing beyond behaviors is that I think it's time we shift away from that.
Tim Villegas
Fantastic. Don't want us to run out of time with the with the Zoom. So I think if we exit, and then come back in on the same link, we'll have about you know, 20 minutes before you need to hop off. Does that sound good?
Mona Delahooke
Yeah, that those questions are great, by the way.
Tim Villegas
Oh, thanks.
Mona Delahooke
Yeah, good.
Mona Delahooke
Really enjoying that conversation! All right. And then we come right back.
Tim Villegas
Exactly. And use the same link. All right.
Mona Delahooke
Okay.
Tim Villegas
You live in Southern California, correct?
Mona Delahooke
Yeah.
Tim Villegas
So I grew up in Arcadia.
Mona Delahooke